"Hive is a centralised shitcoin parading as decentralised. It's all smoke and mirrors bro." - 3j2009 on Nostr
This is a value for value post: see the explanation in the footer.
Note: I'm setting aside 5% of the rewards on this post to send as a Zap on Nostr to the idiot pleb. I will make it very clear to him that these funds are direct from a "centralised shitcoin" and he can turn them down if he wishes.
Another gem from my discussions on Nostr
I got a genuine enquiry about where content and curation rewards on Hive come from to which I replied with a reasonable answer.
You can see the full chain here.
Some further answers were not so polite and despite myself, I couldn't help but answer this cretin:
Thank you for the hours of study you clearly put into that opinion! I presume you run a Bitcoin full node and a Lightning node yourself?
I will quickly shut down the witness node I run ranked 50th which pays me about sats 750,000 per month. Clearly those funds when converted to sats are an illusion and the multiple Bitcoins I’ve collected in cold storage over the last 4 years from working within Hive will evaporate at some point.
BTW my witness ranking comes because real people with a combined investment in Hive of 153,884,113,642 sats (1,538.84 BTC) from 220 individual accounts have voted for me. I’ve only been a witness for 4 months but the years I spent doing useful stuff on Hive built my reputation to a point that when I started a witness I picked up votes quite quickly.
Perhaps I should refuse the 133,000 sats per DAY the DAO pays me to run the various other services. This comes to me because people vote for my proposal in a similar way to the witnes position.
I’ll stop posting on Hive (where I typically make 166,000 sats per post or more, funnily enough someone gave me a single tip of 71,000 sats in addition to the payout I’ll get in 7 days).
This is what happens when a core protocol includes value exchange AND instead of giving all inflation to hardware operators, some of it goes elsewhere for things like dev work or content.
I just checked, my Lightning node made 95,000 sats routing last month. A high water mark for me. 26,000 sats is my monthly average over the last year. I presume you run a Bitcoin full node and a Lightning node yourself?
I’m glad you’re all so excited about 20 sat tips here. Have fun stacking those and building geek play things.
Once again I’ve written more than I should in response to an excessively dumb comment….. I’ll post it on Hive and earn 150k sats :-)
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lol this is a good idea for a series
I'll make bank!
Entertainment value is high
How did i miss that you are also a witness. I just read your posts and i quickly went to peakd to vote for you. The input you put into Hive is outstanding !
I didn't make a huge song and dance about it, but every vote is appreciated.
Well done on educating that idiot! At least now that you posted it on hive, it is forever part of history.
This is completely twisted and wrong!
It would be correct like this:
No one is forced to buy Hive or HBD.
It's right, I buy Hive and HBD with fiat money. But only to increase my influence, my vote and my curation rewards. Anyone can easily use Hive without buying.
Alles gute
They can't get it into their head that 80% of my traffic is INTO BTC.
Thanks for taking the time to reply that guy, that's the absolute clarification he needed, I don't know why some people are blindedsided by their sentiment.
You educated him nicely!
It's kinda Good to see these Dumb question or claims like "it is a scam" "Centralized" coming.. in the end they're going to recognize hive once they have cleared all misconceptions. Well done and respect!
While Bitcoin is great. Bitcoin maximalism is extremism and extremism is bad.
Just because you own a Ferrari doesn't mean every other car it bad.
Is that also true for a Lambo? smirk
I don't think flexing your earnings was the right strategy, tho.
You're right to point this out and I don't make a big deal out of earnings very often but there are occasions when the context supports it.
I'm making the point on Nostr that the layer 1 BTC which they worship doesn't have any rewards for dev or content or anything but using energy and running esoteric hardware.
Nostr is completly without rewards in the protocol. That never ends well.
Where are the tips coming from on that place?
!PIZZA
They all send each other tiny transfers of sats most of which are so small they aren't worth the electricity and disk space consumed in processing them....
That doesn't seem like a very productive way to spend time... do they have any incentive to do it?
!LUV
@brianoflondon, @wrestlingdesires(5/10) sent you LUV. | tools | discord | community |
HiveWiki | 
NFT | <>< daily
Not really!
i think that was a setup for the shitcoin is financing the development from a decentralized dao controlled by community, bitcoin is financed by VC and charity from bitcoin whales. (think Nostr was financed by Jack Dorsey)
That sounds like a disinfected, well-burned victim of another project.
I realize that this is a by-product of your work alongside Lightning on Bitcoin, but a space for Bitcoin Maximalists should be seen as infertile ground for discussing or raising awareness of Hive.
To convince a Bitcoin Maximalist of the value of Hive, you first have to go to great effort to de-convert them out of their existing belief set that comes with the modern Bitcoin maxi package. Bitcoin maximalism comes with a whole host of dogmatic ideas that help to "protect" them from the scary prospect of other cryptos ("shitcoins") possibly having value or a genuine point.
It's a similar thing with crypto skeptics. I generally find crypto skeptics these days get more stuff right about crypto than crypto people do, but they're also so convinced that all crypto are garbage scams that they're not open to the possibility of any actually having a substantive case. A bitcoin maximalist is just one coin away from a no-coiner.
In the meantime there are millions of people around the world who could be open to learning about Hive, the ideas behind it, and not only that but for whom there is potential to make a difference personally in their real life, beyond just making a speculative bet on something getting adopted or the token price going up for whatever reason (which in practice is all crypto is to most people).
I don't set out to spend a huge deal of time on them. Developing good arguments and explanations is always useful to sharpen skills.
Yeah I gave up on discussing anything with maxis, since they're just another cult, not interested in competition. They're ultimately monopolists, just parading behind a different flag
Stupid people are everywhere and this is an extreme example of that. You cannot understand a blockchain just by reading few lines here and there and I am just tired of such shallow people, simply empty shells with a big mouth.
https://leofinance.io/threads/@seckorama/re-leothreads-2yaotj3vr
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I think these 'maximalist' shittalkers will get left behind eventually. I get that BTC is the OG of crypto, but things move on and not everyone can buy lots. My stake is worth more than 1 BTC, but none of it is Bitcoin. It's mostly earned.
What is it with calling people 'bro'? I've seen 'cryptobro' used as a derogatory term on other platforms.
Feel free to keep on winding up the zealots.
Jake and Elwood are the ultimate bros.
There are such people all over the world who still do not understand this technology and whenever they speak, they speak wrongly about it. When no one owns this technology, then how can people control it so people get into it.
Ser....Your patience and tolerance for the maxis is remarkable. You truly are a gem! lol
What a chump ! His loss is our gain ! Glad he is not here !
The dude really don't know about the platform and he should just keep quite rather than ranting.
Haha. Definitely the cream of the crop.
People tend to FUD against a system that didn't work for them due to certain factors, quite understandably.
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There is no point in debating a religious fanatic (that is what they are). For them, anything other than Bitcoin is a scam. Actually, 75% of the block production for Bitcoin is controlled by only 4 mining pools...talk about centralization. They will argue that each pool represents thousands of miners but, in reality, only the pool operators determine which transactions go into each block...so there's that.
https://www.blockchain.com/explorer/charts/pools
the nostr people are OK
but it will be interesting how everything will run in the future - expecially completely without incentives..
well, they also aim to establish a good decentralized social media protocol..
a protocol doesnt necessarily need a blockchain or a token..
still - incentives are key in our world..
I remember when I first signed up, I still didn't really understand much beyond the basics of crypto. Despite being interested, and having an amazing mentor, I was just too new. I tried to find out the answer to that exact question :) ... and this whole thing just reminded me of an onboarding idea I still need to type up 😂
He doesn't deserve even 0.5%
This post has been manually curated by the VYB curation project
These guys all have to ASK for their rewards. Neither of them have.
Good, they really aren't deserving...
Nobody asked...
Probably too proud 😂
!PIZZA
Far too proud! I think they left 25k sats in my pocket.
🤣 like I said, they never deserved it!
!ALIVE
@brianoflondon! You Are Alive so I just staked 0.1 $ALIVE to your account on behalf of @wrestlingdesires. (2/10)
The tip has been paid for by the We Are Alive Tribe through the earnings on @alive.chat, feel free to swing by our daily chat any time you want.
$PIZZA slices delivered:
@wrestlingdesires(7/15) tipped @brianoflondon (x2)
Sorry for the unnecessary admin as no need to come up with a snappy, sharp reply at all.
I only really wanted to say
😆
👆🏼
Also
🤣😂😆
p.s. busy reading up on the case actually, but found this en route to comment on that.
So glad I did!
Also
🤣
The person expresses a genuine concern, but in an extremely unpleasant way. I'm not sure you addressed their concern directly though. The person seems to have come out with the conclusion that 17 people can control the chain.
Yes, that's a finer point which he doesn't get and which I probably can't get across to a closed mind. The 17 are ELECTED and can be un-voted pretty quickly if any of them show signs of wanting to do something bad or that they've been taken over.
We know this, getting others to see it is very hard but I'll try to include this when I answer the question in future.
This is the answer I was looking for as well, in part. He also makes the point that stronger votes come from users with more voting power. To my understanding, if there's one whale who holds an extremely large amount of voting power compared to other users, they can influence the witnesses in their favor. I also understand that there's an upper limit to much Hive Power one can hold at a time, but let's say someone buys in to that max right now and takes advantage of it to vote for witnesses that would do his bidding. How would that type of scenario be resolved to avoid a Justin Sun recap?
I ask this because if this can be avoided, then this is true decentralization; I'm just not aware of the mechanism.
The more one learns about the characters of the more active whales around here, the idea that anyone of them or an external force could organize a truly significant share of the voting power to take over, is not very likely at all.
Based on what I've seen here over the past few months, I do agree that our current whales are protective of Hive. However, is there an actual mechanism in place to prevent something like this from happening in the future? You never know who will come in or when. It already happened with the ... steamy version of the platform.
Having the protective mechanism in place is vital. As long as there is one, then it's set in stone and nobody can argue with the fact of decentralization, rather than stay reliant on "not very likely at all," a.k.a. Living on a Prayer. 😉
P.S. I say this as someone who is now quite literally very invested in Hive and will not be leaving in the foreseeable future.
First and foremost the 1 month delay between powering up and votes counting for governance was put in place specifically to provide options if we notice an unknown and potentially hostile force creeping up on us. I'd say this now makes us "Slippery when Wet" 😜.
The other point is that with fork of Steemit's Ninja-mine stake equivalent and Justin Sun's stake equivalent was put into the DHF which nobody can vote with. That took away by far the largest single point of control.
Anyone trying to take over Hive in the same way will be buying Hive off the open market or trying to do OTC deals with some pretty committed whales. Good luck asking Dan to sell his stake.
We're always looking to strengthen our defenses and we don't take anything for granted, but many of us do think about this stuff.
Excellent. This is what I was looking for. Two concrete non-human mechanisms to help avoid a hostile takeover: a delayed vote + an untouchable stake. The third factor is important, but still has a touch of variability attached due to the imminent human factor.
For the first case (1 month delay of votes and noticing a potential attempt at a takeover), who would have the power to change things, in time, before a takeover happens? We don't want a "Runaway" situation. 😉
Love it lol.
The who ultimately falls to a super majority (17) of the top 20 witnesses who have to signal a new major version. And beneath that is the smaller pool of talent who are technically capable of making changes to Hive's core and testing them properly ahead of a hard fork.
But ultimately those witnesses are only in their places thanks to our votes. It may not seem like much but what we saw when the shit hit the fan over the Justin Sun attack, was that a community lead effort really can move a lot of Hive Power around quite quickly.
OK, so in short a takeover would have to involve compliance among all 17 of the top witnesses, and the 1 month delay in votes would allow time for this to be noticed and acted upon. Still not rock steady, but certainly not without merit, and with the backup of a lot of illiquid Hive. That certainly induces some more confidence.
I think something like this has to be relayed to the average inquisitive user in a way that's easily broken down and easy to understand. A sort of Hive-for-dummies type of explanation. Let's face it... this is relatively new technology and will fly over most people's heads (my own inclusive).
And remeber something else: the top positions are based on votes which can move with three clicks and no transaction fee.
This can change the order pretty quickly. If there is any indication of some kind of corruption, the order will change, new witnesses will be in the top 20 and any coalition built will be useless.
So in a sense there are 2 layers of votes that work here: those from the witnesses themselves and those from the users who vote the witnesses. Therein lies one of the original issues I mentioned, however: the possibility of buying out those who vote for witnesses (or planting a very powerful account to vote for such witnesses), plus the witnesses themselves. However, that additional layer, plus 85% majority consensus requirement, does indeed decrease the likelihood of this occurring.
This makes me think that the number of votes a witness receives should outweigh the power of a single heavyweight voter, if that makes sense. For instance, picture this scenario: some whale creates an account and purchases 5,000,000 HP, so the weight of their vote will essentially exceed all others combined and render them insignificant. Then they'd have the power to choose whichever witnesses (which could even be newly created puppet accounts) will help them based on the weight of their vote, and retain those witnesses, even though these witnesses would only have that single huge vote. Unless another whale comes in within a 1 month time frame, they'd essentially own the top witnesses. That's the power of stake at work.
If I'm understanding the voting weighing mechanism correctly, does that scenario seem like something that's actually possible, even if highly unlikely? If it is, then I wouldn't be convinced that it's a 100% decentralized platform, but as close as it can get without significant changing the voting system.
The idea of weighting lots of smaller votes slightly higher than their combined big vote has been discussed and rejected because ultimately it is prone to Sybil attack (bots).
When you start to do the maths on buying witness votes, the numbers pretty much show this is uneconomic.It was possible pre Hive, because of the centralised stake of Steemit and the collusion with the exchanges. Today I think we've closed this route down completely.
That's the kind of insight only someone experienced can provided. Thanks, that makes sense.
I'd be interested to see that discussion. I like accounting of numbers lol (you can see my posting history for proof).
What about this type of scenario: creating 17 of one's own puppet accounts (I believe one requires around 6,000 HP to claim a new account token) --> voting them in as witnesses --> increasing, say, the HBD savings APR to an outrageous figure (i.e. 100%) through votes using those puppet accounts --> taking advantage of this mechanism for only a few years --> switching HBD to Hive and selling it off for fiat/BTC/other over the course of a few years to avoid a sudden price crash.
I'm sure you guys have discussed this exact type of event, but it would be good to know that there's a fail-safe for this scenario, aside from creating another new fork on the blockchain.
It takes 63.4m HP worth of votes to scrape into the top 20. You need more than 80m to displace 3rd place. You need to fill all positions from 20 to 3.
63.4m HP is $25m worth of Hive. You simply can't buy that amount on the open market quickly: the price would start rising so dramatically we'd all love you. Couple that with the modest earnings a top 20 witness makes ($5k per month) and the considerable investment all the top witnesses have in Hive's future as a project, corrupting them for money is very hard.
You would need to deploy a whole lot of money to do this, in a way that we didn't notice and hope you get to keep any rewards.
And if you really are successful and a majority of us really don't like what you're doing, we'll fork off. We've done it before.
Now this is getting very clear as to why it's economically unfeasible, especially with the figures you provide. Even if it's done insidiously so as not to alter the price too much, it'll likely be noticed over time, thus making it a far riskier maneuver. The risk itself would be a deterrent for any whale to try to perform this, especially since the eventual selling off would potentially induce price crashes, thus defeating the purpose of their investment.
Now, isn't also true that there is a ceiling to how much HP can be owned by a single user? If the ceiling is less than the minimum to break into the Top 20 witness position, then the witness positions are actually completely protected, thus alleviating the concern I had about puppet accounts / buying out witnessed, and consequently decentralized.
There's no limits in theory or in code to HP by a single account. But there are very real practical limits to how much can be accumulated and how quickly by any single entity.
Ah, I see. At any rate, yes, like you said: the practical limits provide a ceiling. Before that ceiling is reached, there would be very noticeable movements in price action, and thus a potential takeover would end up taking far, far more than a month and could be detected in advance.
Do you think that a coded ceiling for HP would be useful?
I think I'll make a post about our conversation at some point, if that's all right with you: this entire concept, as understood by a common person without much experience in cryptocurrency, and virtually no experience in blockchain aside from using it as a poster haha.
Would love to see the info here arranged into a post. Take anything of mine with pleasure!
Nope, a cap on HP would be communist... I don't like communism!
It shall be done! If the information can be relayed from the everyman to other everym(e)n, then the concepts may be more approachable. Simplification is one of the keys to expanding adoption of cryptocurrency.
I'll tag you when I make the post, just to make sure that everything I wrote it accurate, since I
I'll phrase things in context of my understanding.
I hope you'll excuse me for that one. The thought came into my mind when I was 80% asleep. Sleepwalking communism? 🤔
At any rate, I agree that wouldn't be a good idea because the downhill implications would be terrible. My own family understands the consequences from personal experience.
Talking about Hive on alternative platforms is an exercise that often seems to highlight ignorance, as well as opinions backed by nothing except a personal bias or view. On very few occasions are these "views" objective, or based on any knowledge/understanding. That's just the way people are...
The BTC Maxi cult makes gold bugs look slightly less..delusional, and that's mainly targeted at the people who believe a Gold Standard 2.0 is even possible.