RE: LeoThread 2025-03-14 14:11
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Matthew 16 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this [n]rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth [shall have been loosed in heaven.”
@jongolson in verse 19 the I in "I will give" is referring to himself Jesus, correct?
Then the "you the keys of the kingdom of heaven", the you is referring to himself?
In verse 18 And I (Jesus) say to you (who is this "you" referring to?) that you (who is this "you" referring to?) Petros (rock is referring to himself Jesus) then who is the "you"?
Your churches interpretation makes no grammatical sense to me but I was a bad student of grammar.
Using your logic that the rock Jesus is referring to is himself, please explain to me who he is addressing?
God is not the author of confusion...
So everywhere, and I mean everywhere in the bible, Jesus is referred to as the rock, the stone, the cornerstone. Everywhere!
(Peter even confirms this!)
By your logic, God points to Jesus throughout Scripture, but really means Peter from one verse.
Make it make sense! Please :)
Or maybe....Jesus is talking about His church! Christ is the focus, not Peter in those verses.
The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus.
Who disputes this fact?
You did not answer my questions about who "you" is referring to?
Cephas = Petros = Rock = Jesus, always?
Also by this logic 1 Peter & 2 Peter could be referred to as 1 Jesus & 2 Jesus.
Matthew 16:23 when Peter rebukes Jesus for speaking about his upcoming suffering and death. Jesus responds, "Get behind me, Satan!" indicating that Peter's mindset was not aligned with God's plan.
You are saying Peter is Jesus? Jesus is Satan in this verse?
For the 1st 4 centuries before a Bible existed no one tried to use this crazy logic nor after the canonization of the Bible in the 4th century, until the 19th Century.
Now you are playing with my words man ;)
Fact: When the rock / stone / cornerstone is mentioned in the bible it's always referring to Christ.
Fact: Peter even says, Christ is the stone / rock (1 peter 2)
You can do the bible gymnastics as long as you want. You have one verse that you hang your entire doctrine and church on.
But what does the bible say.....Out of two or three witnesses, then all will be established. - Matthew 18:16
You cannot biblically base a doctrine on one verse.
Peter literally means rock.
Why do you always avoid my questions about this?
Cephas = Petros = Rock in English, our language, it is Peter.
Where am I incorrect here?
10000% true.
I agree that Peter....Means rock. No argument there.
But that still doesn't change the facts that I mentioned above.
The entire bible calls Christ the rock. And you must have more than one witness (verse) to establish doctrine.
In Matthew 16 he is talking to all the disciples. The disciples were the witnesses when Jesus refers to Peter as the rock he will build his church on. Peter was the first Pope (Bishop) of the Catholic church. If you are saying there was a Pope or Bishop prior to him please show me where that is in the Bible or any other historical evidence to the contrary.
there's no head of the church but Christ....thus, Christ is the rock, the chief cornerstone.
The Rock of Ages.
we are to obey God, not man.
Jesus stated otherwise- The apostles were given specific roles and authority by Christ. In Matthew 10:1, Jesus granted them power over unclean spirits and the ability to heal every disease and sickness. This empowerment was a testament to their divine commission and the authority they carried as representatives of Christ.
Jesus instructed them to preach the message of the Kingdom of Heaven, emphasizing repentance and the coming of God's reign (Matthew 10:7).
Before His ascension, Jesus gave the apostles the Great Commission, a mandate to spread the Gospel to all nations. In Matthew 28:18-20, Jesus declared, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you." This commission underscored the global scope of their mission and the enduring nature of their teachings.
How is that Jesus stating otherwise? That's a very confusing statement. He gave us His great commission, He gave us the Holy Spirit....
I am not disagreeing with any of that. That's really got nothing to do with claiming that Peter is now the head of the church. Christ is always the head.
Because we can confirm that, throughout scripture with a 'thus saith the Lord'....Christ = The Rock / Chief Cornerstone
Is there a Catholic alive or dead that states openly that Christ is not the head of the church?
Does your church not have Bishops (elders)?
Are your elders of no importance in the church or do you guys just let whomever make decisions on how the governance of the organized church works?
In biblical terms, an elder is a leader or overseer within the church, often responsible for teaching, spiritual guidance, and governance. The term is used in both the Old and New Testaments to denote someone with authority and wisdom.
Agreed with all of that as well.
Still doesn't make Peter the pope man lol
Sure we have elders, sure we have pastors. And yes, they are in leadership positions, but they are not the head of the church.
Ok., let me ask another question....
If the pope says something that is clearly against scripture, and makes it part of the catechism, would you support it, or stick with what the bible says?
Hypotheticals?
Catechism states that the pope is infallible only when he proclaims a doctrine of faith or morals ex cathedra, meaning "from the chair" of St. Peter, under specific conditions. This is a rare occurrence.
Your church has a structure and was founded by a group of people, correct?
The Catholic church also, founded by Jesus Christ and his 12 disciples & has not changed.
I had two Deacons that are waiting to become priests at my house last night but since 2022 but the Bishop was exiled to the Vatican there is no way for apostolic succession.
They cannot be ordained by the rules of the church founded by Jesus.
How did Jesus command your church leaders be ordained & under whose authority?
All catholic churches have apostolic succession, none catholic orthodox churches like the Coptic church & Ethiopian church practice apostolic succession.
A lineage traceable all the way to Jesus himself, even the oil they use to ordain people was originally blessed by Jesus himself.
So a man is infallible? Only some times?
Now go read 2 Thessalonians 2....Sure sounds like someone claims to sit on the throne of God....
Even better, here's the good ol' pope, sitting on the throne between two cherubim. I mean.....
That's not AI either, it's from the vatican website lol
It's literally, the definition of blasphemy:
claiming to be God (infaillable)
claiming to forgive sin (confession to priests)
2 Peter 2:1-3, we are warned of false teachers who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, denying the sovereign Lord.
It says that they will bring swift destruction on themselves, and many will follow their shameful ways.
In 1 Timothy 4:1-3, the Bible warns about people who will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. It says that these people will be hypocritical liars, and their consciences will be seared.
Jesus warns of evil in the church in Matt 13:24-30, he tells the parable of the weeds among the wheat. Where an enemy sows weeds among the wheat, & the master of the house allows them to grow together until the harvest. This illustrates the reality that evil will exist within the church.
Is he not talking about the Cardinals, Bishops, and Priests?
Wouldn't Jesus have of said to leave the church and start a new one if that is what he wanted?
Where in the Bible does he says, because of these events leave my church & start your own?
Evading the picture I posted huh? I know, that's a tough one for you guys ;)
My brother, I literally agree with everything you posted. There will be a falling away. There will be false teachers / doctrines. etc...
The issue for you and I is that you see the church (catholic) forming from that one verse where Jesus talks to Peter.
I view it as a larger mission, for us to be the body of Christ and that we cannot forget that Christ is the true head and the rock of ages.
I think it really comes down to that....interpretation of the bible.
Evading? Jesus said these things would happen.
I even addressed by some of the verses that cover this satanic behavior happening in the Vatican. Just as Jesus said it would happen.
No, I do not see Peter forming the church and have repeatedly said Jesus formed and started the catholic church and that is what the catechism says too.
Peter was the 1st pope.
If he was not the first pope I will ask you for a 2nd time, who was the 1st pope?
Peter did not start the church and there is no church in the Catholic Rite that does not say Jesus Christ started the church.
Also show me where in scripture it says to protest the church and start a new one?
We don't need a pope man. Why is that such a big deal...There wasn't one 'before Peter', because we don't need one lol
We don't need mediators. We have Christ. We don't need priests to confess to, we have Christ.
Here, I'll show you from the bible what the true church of Christ is....
Revelation 12:17
It needs two characteristics...
Must keep the commandments of Christ. All 10. Which the catholic church changed. It's in your cathecism that you changed Sabbath to Sunday.
Must have the testimony of Jesus. Which if you read Revelation 19:10, is the spirit of prophecy.
So the church at the end of time, must have those two characteristics. It's not the catholic church my friend, and that's bible.
You think Jesus was wrong when he ordains his apostles as bishops ("Bishop" episkopos in Greek meaning "overseer") in the following biblical passages:
Matthew 16:18-19, where Jesus gives Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven,
Matthew 10:1-4, where Jesus gives the twelve apostles authority,
John 20:21-23, where Jesus gives the apostles the power to forgive sins, and
Luke 22:29-30, where Jesus tells the apostles that he has given them a kingdom.
The most direct reference to the ordination of the apostles as bishops is found in John 20:21-23, where Jesus says, "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you... Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
Jesus gives the apostles these powers but you disagree with him?
Don't disagree with a singe thing. Other than....Peter is the pope lol
Of course Christ gave the Holy Spirit to guide everyone, and leaders in the church had to be set up. Still doesn't make the catholic church 'the church'.
There was essential only the Catholic Church for 1500 years plus the Oriental Orthodox and a few other sects. And yes the Holy Spirit came upon them at Pentecost.
Like it or not, Jesus put Peter in charge for when he ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of the father.
The idea that Peter held a special role is evident early on. Church Fathers like Ignatius of Antioch (c. 107 AD) and Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 180 AD) reference Rome’s prominence among Christian communities.
Clement of Rome (c. 96 AD) wrote to the Corinthians urging unity, which some take as an assertion of Roman authority.
Cyprian of Carthage (c. 250 AD) acknowledged Rome’s primacy but saw it more in terms of unity rather than absolute supremacy.
The Eastern Orthodox Church recognizes Peter’s primacy but interprets it differently. They historically saw Rome as "first among equals," not as a supreme, infallible authority.
Councils like Chalcedon (451 AD) affirmed Rome’s high status but also gave equal honors to Constantinople.
But then again you give zero weight to the 1st 4 centuries of the church because there was no canonized Bible.
everything that the 'church' did, I put zero weight on it. All the catholic doctrines that arose before the dark ages....Oh hey, why were they they dark ages again?
Oh that's right the 'church' that you claim Jesus left to Peter basically killed millions of 'heretics' and forbid them from reading the bible for themselves.
But let's keep pretending that's the 'church' Jesus left to the world.
My friend, your church has the darkest history in....history.
Then why do you trust the Bible that the Catholic Church canonized?
Why do you not hold to the full laws of keeping to the Sabbath, including punishment of death?
I do not agree for putting people to death, Jesus by words and example chnged Laws, but the Mosaic Laws you hold against Catholics for not keeping state:
Deuteronomy 13:1–5 — If a prophet or dreamer advocates worshiping other gods, even if their signs or wonders come true, they are to be put to death for leading people astray.
Deuteronomy 13:6–11 — If even a close relative entices you to serve other gods, the punishment is death.
Leviticus 24:16 — Blasphemy against the name of the LORD was also punishable by death.
Actually, let's do a quick bible study....
Pope = 'Father' in greek.
What does Jesus say about calling anyone 'Father'?
Matthew 23:9 for that answer....
"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."
So from here we see, the catholic church is in error. And that's just the tip of the ice berg.
Yet Paul also refers to himself as "father" in 1 Timothy is not one, but in Titus 1:4, where he addresses Titus as "my true child in our common faith" and in Philemon 1:10, where he calls Onesimus "my child", and in 1 Corinthians and also in 2 Timothy and 1 Timothy and Titus and Philemon and also in Philemon 1:10 and 1 Timothy 1:2 and 2 Timothy 1:2 and 2 Timothy 2:1, and Titus 1:4, he calls them "my child" or "my true child" but specifically as "father" only in 1 Corinthians 4:15.
Maybe you don't understand the meaning of Matthew 23:9 the Church understands Jesus to be emphasizing the unique fatherhood of God and the importance of recognizing and honoring Him as the one true Father. The Church also sees this verse as a call to humility and a reminder that all human authority and fatherhood is derived from and subordinate to the authority and fatherhood of God.
The Church notes that Jesus himself referred to Abraham as "father" (Luke 1:73, John 8:56)
The church in the end times is not universal?
Who is excluded?
Revelation 14:6-12 for your answer to that :)
How does Rev 14: 6-12 answer that the church is not the church Jesus started?
@jongolson so who was the 1st pope if it was not Peter?