HardFork 28: Upvoting Made Simple
Last night, I did some research on one of the upcoming features of HardFork 28 (GitHub link), which will be released on the 19th of this month, the change in upvoting. Basically, there will no longer be any decay in the value of our upvotes. The value will remain consistent from the first upvote to the last, regardless of our upvote mana level.
Based on the information I gathered from the comments section, I’m adding a new explanation of the system. Credit to @engrave for providing this perspective, which, in my opinion, makes it easier for everyone to understand and grasp the new system that will be implemented through Hardfork 28.
Imagine you have a bucket that you want to empty. The bucket holds 10 liters, and you’re using a 1-liter cup to scoop water out. The current voting system works in such a way that after each scoop, your cup shrinks by 2%. So the more scoops you take, the smaller your cup becomes — and the less water you actually remove from the bucket each time, even though you’re still filling your cup to 100%.
The upcoming change will make it so your cup no longer shrinks, meaning it will take exactly 10 scoops to empty the whole bucket.
In both cases, the bucket still holds 10 liters — the only difference is the number of actions you need (or are able) to take to empty it. Once the bucket is empty, you can’t get anything more out of it, meaning you can't vote and distribute rewards.
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I think this is one of the changes that aligns with what is mentioned during the core dev panel discussion, improving the quality of life here in Hive. This change simplifies one of the regular activities we do on the platform, and I believe it’s a great step forward as we continue to bring Hive to a wider audience.
The reason I say that is because, if you pay close attention to your upvoting, the value of your upvote decreases with each subsequent upvote, assuming you upvote one post after another. There’s currently a 2% decay in the value of each following upvote unless you allow your mana to replenish before upvoting again, which takes about two hours. Because of this, some curators follow a discipline of giving out upvotes equivalent to 10 full (100%) upvotes per day to ensure their mana fully regenerates every 24 hours.
Seasoned or veteran curators have already adapted to this discipline and probably don’t mind it anymore. However, for new Hive users or curators, this adds an extra layer of complexity to their experience. In the case of users with low Hive Power (HP), it even risks nullifying their curation efforts when their upvote value drops below the “Reward/Dust Threshold Level.” Just to refresh our memory, the dust threshold on Hive is $0.02, meaning if a post or comment’s reward is below that threshold, it will be nullified. Both the curator and the post author won’t receive any curation reward or post payout after seven days.
To demonstrate the effect of vote value decay and how it can lead to a user’s vote being nullified due to the reward or dust threshold, let me show you an example in table form. Let’s analyze the case of a Hive user with 3,500 HP (Hive Power), which is equivalent to $444 at the current Hive price of $0.126. In this example, we’ll assume the user gives a series of consecutive 100% upvotes without allowing their mana to replenish between votes.
I chose this curation behavior as an example because new users who only have 10–15 minutes a day to curate might prefer manual curation and end up doing quick, “trigger-happy” upvotes on their favorite authors’ posts—or perhaps upvoting all the comments on their own posts.
Here are the first 10 consecutive 100% upvotes for 3,500 HP assuming no regen between votes with ~2% decay per vote:
| # | Value (USD) |
|---|---|
| 1 | $0.02293 |
| 2 | $0.02247 |
| 3 | $0.02202 |
| 4 | $0.02158 |
| 5 | $0.02115 |
| 6 | $0.02072 |
| 7 | $0.02031 |
| 8 | $0.01990 |
| 9 | $0.01950 |
| 10 | $0.01911 |
As you can see, by the 8th upvote, the value has dropped below the threshold. If the post or comment doesn’t receive another upvote to raise its value, the reward for both the curator and the author will be nullified. This makes the experience frustrating for both parties, which is why the new system aims to resolve this issue.
In the new system, the value of a 3,500 HP upvote will remain the same at $0.02293. This means you will no longer feel constrained by the reward or dust threshold, and you can upvote with confidence, knowing exactly how much reward you’re distributing to a post or comment.
Overall, I think this change is a big improvement that makes curation simpler and more rewarding for everyone on Hive. It removes unnecessary complexity and encourages more engagement from both new and experienced users. With this update, we’re definitely moving closer to making Hive more user-friendly and accessible to the masses.
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From what I've read, the value of the vote will no longer decrease according to the VP? I think my 100% vote is worth about 0.12 or 0.14 cents, so I'll be able to vote 100% all the time, and even if my VP goes down, the value will remain as high as possible?
Yes that's exactly right and I confirmed that based on how BT explained during the panel discussion as well. For me that will change the dynamics of our upvoting pattern I guess :)
I'm going to press down hard on the mouse to vote, I'm going to sink the mouse into the table.
Exactly! You’ll be able to upvote freely without worrying about your VP dropping the value. The new system makes it much easier to curate confidently. 💪
That'll be really cool, it's got me excited. I just hope there aren't any negative side effects.
Unfortunately, there will still be some form of abuse (somehow) and I believe the core devs and curation community are aware of it... hopefully it can be avoided through dialogue otherwise they will use downvoted as a last resort 🧐
Let's really hope everything goes well! I'm looking forward to this new model for the votes.
There might be some misunderstanding here. The fact that the "value" of the vote will not decrease with consecutive votes does not mean you can vote indefinitely. There's still Voting Mana that gets depleted while you vote, and you can run out of fuel.
tks. i was planing to research what the hardfork will change....
It's my pleasure and if you wish to check the other changes, you may find the TLDR here:
https://github.com/openhive-network/hive/releases/tag/1.28.0
nice, so looks like only the vote is a big impact for most users, the rest will be smooth transparent
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Oh yeah, this is a great move :)
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Absolutely, such a welcome change for curators and authors alike! 😄
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Glad you found it helpful! This update will really simplify curation for everyone. Cheers! 🍻
Interesting. Thanks for sharing, haven't heard about this so far.
But if you always have the same VP regardless of mana, then I can distribute countless upvotes and thus receive virtually infinite curation rewards. Where is the limit or the limiting factor?
The mana still depletes for every vote so we still need to replenish it 😁. It's only the $value of the upvote that remains the same until we run out of mana.
I get it, thanks! :)
For example I could upvote from 100% mana until 0% mana, and then I can't give any upvotes anymore and have to wait for new mana, right?
Yes that's right. And while you're casting those upvotes, the $value remains the same, it will not get any lesser until you can no longer cast an upvote.
For me it will become simpler, no longer worrying about the $value dropping for every upvotes casted. 😁
It will be much simpler, but people will run out of mana much faster and more often in my opinion.
I have to be honest, the more I explain this to people, the more I suspect that there has to be a consequence related to time... or in this case, mana. If what you said is correct, then the 2% decay on the vote value that was removed might instead be reflected in the reduction of mana with every subsequent upvote we cast (without waiting 2.4 hours between each one). I’d say that would make sense; otherwise, everyone would just be pressing the upvote button carelessly. I’ll be observing closely once HF28 is in place.
I'm not really sure why people get crazy about this change.
Imagine you have a bucket that you want to empty. The bucket holds 10 liters, and you’re using a 1-liter cup to scoop water out. The current voting system works in such a way that after each scoop, your cup shrinks by 2%. So the more scoops you take, the smaller your cup becomes — and the less water you actually remove from the bucket each time, even though you’re still filling your cup to 100%.
The upcoming change will make it so your cup no longer shrinks, meaning it will take exactly 10 scoops to empty the whole bucket.
In both cases, the bucket still holds 10 liters — the only difference is the number of actions you need (or are able) to take to empty it. Once the bucket is empty, you can’t get anything more out of it, meaning you can't vote and distribute rewards.
In both cases, the amount of water represents your voting mana, which will deplete faster under the new system.
I believe this is a much better explanation of the new system, one that everyone will be able to understand.
I guess it wasn’t communicated clearly enough, which is why we tend to speculate and make assumptions about it. I hope you don’t mind if I quote your explanation in my post; it will help clarify things since I didn’t mention this part of the new system. Thanks!
That means we will vote the shit out of our VP? There are hardly enought posts to vote for :-)
Upvotes are still limited by the amount of mana we have left. 😁
Fair point… We definitely need more good content creators here who can meet your standards. Apparently, mine didn’t quite make the cut. 😞
we will see how it works in reality then :-)
Yeah, also curious whether it will make an impact 🤪
I struggle with this sentence in your post "The value will remain consistent from the first upvote to the last, regardless of our upvote mana level."
Hmm, let’s take your account as an example. Have you wondered why your current vote value is $1.027 while your max vote value is $1.225? That’s because your Voting Mana is currently at 83.80%.
In the new system, however, your current vote value will remain at $1.225 regardless of your Voting Mana level.
For me, that’s the beauty of the new system... I no longer have to keep adjusting my upvote percentage just to ensure that every author I support receives the same vote value I intend to give. 😁
Yes I understand but you mentioned mana level still important, why then if nothing changes?
Good question! Mana still matters because it determines how many votes we can cast... the difference now is that the value of each upvote won’t decrease as mana depletes.
Basically, it’s still important for us to monitor our mana and keep it at a healthy level. We should aim to give around 10 full (100%) upvotes per day so that our mana can fully replenish daily as well.
hmm ok - never had a look on mama, i jsut tried to stay over 80% kind of - we will find out then :-)
That’s great! In that case, you might not need to change anything about your curation. But yeah, let’s see how this new feature will change the dynamics among curators. 😁
Then, I wonder what sense will have the use of the "voting slider" in this case from now on. Although I suspect that continuing to use it as we have been using it until now, will probably have more to do with the number of votes we could give in a day, regardless of whether they all have the same value.
I see what you mean. Actually, I wanted to watch someone test it out for themselves, to go all the way down to zero mana. I’m curious what kind of benefit they might get from that. And if the action really is abusive, I believe there are curators who will simply counter it with downvotes. :D
Well yeah, because one of the main and most important considerations I'm thinking about regarding this new voting method & formula after the HF28 is the following:
Today, when we vote organically and manually using the voting slider to adjust the percentage of voting power, we are not only regulating the monetary value we will give with our vote. But we are also regulating the proportion of how our voting mana will be reduced when we cast the vote. So, in theory, granting 10 votes per day with 100% voting power would be enough to exhaust our voting mana all the way down to zero that day. And in this case, with each consecutive vote granting a less and less monetary value.
After HF28, in theory, the use of the voting slider will no longer would make much sense in terms of the monetary value we will grant with each vote. Since as I understand it, the monetary value of our vote always will be equivalent to if we had granted the vote at 100% of our voting power. Even though, supposedly, our voting mana actually will gradually decrease according to the percentage of voting power that we have adjusted.
Therefore, in conclusion. By instance, currently one of your upvotes at 100% of your VP would always grant a monetary value of $0.27 after HF28, regardless of the percentage you had adjusted on the slider. However, we assume that your voting mana actually will decrease according to the VP percentage you adjusted. This, in turn, I guess only will determine the maximum number of $0.27 upvotes you can cast that day.
So yeah, let's assume that after HF28 10 upvotes per day given at 100% of your VP would deplete your voting mana down to zero preventing you from voting again until the next day once your voting mana has been recovered.
However, the greatest mystery and major paradox I observe when making these conjectures is the following:
What will happen with those lazy users with a very high HP who usually vote through those automated blind voting services adjusted with various reduced VP percentages but whose vote at 100% of their VP could grant close to $100.00?
¿Would they be giving almost $100.00 to everyone they vote for before their voting mana runs out according to the VP percentage they have adjusted in the dApp?
Or will the VP percentage they have set in the dApp actually will influence not only the number of votes they could cast daily but also the monetary value they could grant through their vote accordingly?
Great questions. From what I understand, the HF28 change is “no decay between consecutive votes,” not “every vote pays as if 100%.” In other words...
The slider still matters. It scales both payout and mana cost per vote.
Let me bring up the example that i shared in my post: if my full (100%) vote is $0.02293, then a 50% vote is about $0.01147. I can fire 10 of those in a row and each one is still ~$0.01147; I just spend 50%-sized chunks of mana each time. If I vote at 100%, I give $0.02293 each time and burn mana faster... so I get fewer total votes that day.
On the “big lazy auto-voters” concern: a 10% auto-vote will still be ~10% of their full value, not a hidden 100%. The change only makes each 10% vote consistent across a session. Usual social/technical safeguards (including downvotes) still apply if someone tries to game it.
So the slider = how big each vote is + how fast you drain mana; no-decay = no more mid-session weakening. This is in theory based on what I understand in GitHub and the core dev panel discussion... I will confirm this once HF28 is in place and test it out myself :)
Removing the upvote decay will make things easier for everyone and help more people stay active. It’s nice to see Hive always working to improve the experience for both old and new users.
Exactly! This move makes Hive much easier to use for everyone... love seeing these quality-of-life improvements. 🚀
That would really simplify things. This was one of the quirks about HIVE that I learned about early on. That said, the old guides probably need to be changed/updated now. 🤣
Haha true! Those old guides definitely need an update now. This change will simplify curation big time. 😄
Thank you so much bro for such information. I'm actually quite low on HP, because I'm somewhat new. And, it took me a lot of time to understand things on this platform. I'm still in my phase, but I'm pushing for more HP. This voting system will be of real help for me. Although, I still won't be able to pass 0.02 threshold, but boost+ allows me to vote upto 0.003 and sometimes 0.004 🤭.
That’s awesome to hear! Every bit of HP counts... and yes, tools like boost+ really help fill that gap for new users. I'm also using it, used 6000 Ecency points to have 200HP for a month 😁. Keep growing your stake... you’re on the right track. 💪
thanks for this, been struggling finding info on how the fork affects front end users experience and "need to know" rather than the technical stuff behind the scenes. thanks!!!
BLINGIT
Glad this helped! I tried to focus on the user-side experience since most updates tend to be technical. Appreciate the feedback! 🙏
yeah super helpful, do post if you find anything else that is "user experience need to know stuff"
much appreciated.
BLINGIT
That's sounds like it's begging for "abuse" to me.. the depreciation in vote value is what stops people from over voting... or over voting percentage wise
Good point! The devs did mention safeguards to prevent abuse, so it’ll be interesting to see how it plays out in practice. 👀
Very interesting I always asked myself that question pprque the vote is reduced for the user, thanks for the information
This is an interesting fork. I like the no decay.
This is a TERRIBLE MOVE -> everyone sees this as a free pass -> considering it's a set ammt of rewards in the pool, this is just going to be funnelling everything to the top accounts... -> whats stopping the biggest abusers from just upvoting their own comments 200 times in a row -> and then delegating their power to another account -> and then re upvoting them all again 50 times over and just pulling the overall fund down...
terrible move here unless im missing something
Exactly the same thing that stops them right now - voting mana that gets depleted after each vote. Nothing changes here.
You can't do that right now and won't be able to do it after HF28.
No you CANT do this right now becuase your votes are worth less each time without recharge...
imagine the pool is 10 dollars -> well keep the numbers simple here...
you are a whale, your upvote takes 1 dollar out of the total reward pool -> now theres 9 left -> you do another one it takes out 80 cents. so on so forth...
now you can just sit there at zero percent and reem out the pool...
People are just looking at this like they get to make more money now.. Those people were previously limiting their votes to maintain a high reward... Now your just able to upvote as much as you want and not worry about losing value on subsequent upvotes...
The total Rewards going out on the platform are not changing -> just the percent of the pot whales are able to take out...
Someone with a 0.001 hive upvote isnt going to be pulling much out of the reward pool, but someone with a 25 hive upvote can now just pull in so much more of that finite pool...
Explain to me how this part is good. specifically the effect it's going to have on the way reward pool is dispursed... someone who was previously capped from hammering the pool is now able to make 50 100% upvotes back to back and continuously be rewarded full value?
be ready to see a 3 - 5 cent Hive most likely before the fork even hits becuase the extra hive coming in is just going to be liquidated ... and without some new reason for demand it's just going to be clearing out all bids on the exchanges that support HIVE.
The total impact on the reward pool will be exactly the same now and after HF28, and it is strictly connected to HP only. It doesn't matter how many votes you can cast. You will run out of voting mana after 10 votes instead of 50, and the result will be exactly the same.
Yeah, and you can do that almost indefinitely now until you reach, let's say 20$ total rewards. After the change, you will be able to cast 20 votes, resulting in 20$ total rewards and you will be blocked from further voting.
It you will keep voting at 100% you will quickly rin out of mana and be blocked from further voting.
That's not true.
That's not true.
It will be easier to effectively use all your voting power.
That's not true.
That's definitely a good move! Thanks for sharing!
I am glad to see such change in real time.
That 60,000 HP to about $0.393 per full vote is a helpful anchor, but the 0 HP edge case can break the fo*rmula if you dont cap or floor something. From an accounting view the numbers looks ok only when you state the assumptions like VP and HIVE price. Rounding small deltas can swing cents and it reads bigger than it is, so maybe show a band not a single point. My spreadsheet would cry if I feed it 0 HP :)